Consoles: Poor Controls and TPS | PC: Precise Controls and FPS

[QUOTE="jjccjj92"]

[QUOTE="haberman13"]

Think so? I disagree, console gamers don't really know what PC precision is like ... so arguments come from not knowing.

Try an FPS on console, and the same game on PC: opinion is negated at that point.

haberman13

I'm an objective thinker, in a discussion about control precision arguing for a less precise mechanic is negated. Subjectively you prefer the inferior method, objectively your opinion in this matter doesn't qualify as you are arguing for less/inferior (pertaining to control precision and its affects on games).

This is also disregarding the fact that controllers are the superior method of control for many genres as well.

i have been using controllers for nearly 15 years. if I encounter a problem, I will inform you immediately.

It depends on the developer and the type of game you are playing. You develop to your strength.

KB&M controls on a racing game are terrible but that doesn't make KB&M bad because of it.

Your argument is beyond flawed.

So what do you prefer? less control precision and easier games? Or more control precision and potentially frustrating games

haberman13

There is no evidence suggesting LESS precision means an easier game or vice versa. You just made that crap up and essentially are using yourself as a source

Console games use controllers (duh?) - but does that affect the types of games developed for the system? (also: does the Wii controller affect the type of games on that system?)

PC games use mice (duh?) - see above question

The answer is yes right? Developers use the strengths of the systems.

For example, an FPS on console makes extensive use of aim-assists and other "helpers" to make the game less frustrating (and less challenging), while on PC the mouse allows you to use your skill for aiming changing the way the game plays (run-n-gun vs duck and shoot).

BC2 is a great example of this; on console its very much aim-assisted and the bullet physics are missing, on PC there is bullet drop and no aim-assist.

Question: do the aforementioned facts change what developers are creating for the various systems?

Answer (IMO): yes, on console developers are creating linear TPS games that remove aim skill in leiu of cover mechanics, while on PC developers are focused on adding depth to the already established m/kb precision model (Red Orchestra 2 is a good example of their adding onto the m/kb).

In the end the consoles/Wii/PC are all different animals, because at their core they have different controls philosophies which change what types of games are produced for each system. (multiplats are even changed ala BC2).

So what do you prefer? less control precision and easier games? Or more control precision and potentially frustrating games?

haberman13

BC2 on consoles does have bullet drop. I know, I play that game all the time, and the aim assist is really really minor on BC2. The only game that it makes much of a difference is Call of Duty. COD uses aim assist to an absoulutely insane level where you can just blatantly miss while being next to the person and still kill him.

I actually like 360 controller over PC mouse for Bfield 2 (I don't have bad company on PC) because it's considerably easier for me to aim at long range. Most PC games don't have a low enough mouse sensitivity for me.

I've played FPS on consoles, I loved the controls, I've played them on PC, I hated the controls. And Just btw BC2 has bullet drop in the console versions, so I'm wondering how much of this game you've actually played to be able to state those things.

here are a list of genres that either dont work well with a keyboard or I would never prefer to play with a keyboard and mouse

- racing games

- fighting games

- platforming games

- light gun games (well..... obviously)

- side scrollers (though I like IWBTG and its spinoffs, I use a gamepad for them)

- hack and slash games

----------------------------------------

pretty much the only genres that I would consider using a keyboard instead of a controller are

- RTS games

- most third person shooters (this includes games in various genres like "dead space"). still, I think games like vanquish and uncharted would be a nightmare on a keyboard.

- western RPGS. or any RPGs that involve alot of menus (like most MMOS)

---------------------------------------

with FPS games I think its just a matter of preference. even back last gen I remember owning the PS2 and PC versions of "star wars battlefront 2" and I played the console version a hell of alot more. mainly becuase I prefered playing with a controller and I seemed to be better with one.

[QUOTE="haberman13"]

So what do you prefer? less control precision and easier games? Or more control precision and potentially frustrating games

Led_poison

There is no evidence suggesting LESS precision means an easier game or vice versa. You just made that crap up and essentially are using yourself as a source

There is evidence: console games

TPS games like Gears are unbelievablly easy compared to a game like Stalker or BC2 on PC; auto-aim used to compensate for lack of precision == easier game!

[QUOTE="Led_poison"]

[QUOTE="haberman13"]

So what do you prefer? less control precision and easier games? Or more control precision and potentially frustrating games

haberman13

There is no evidence suggesting LESS precision means an easier game or vice versa. You just made that crap up and essentially are using yourself as a source

There is evidence: console games

TPS games like Gears are unbelievablly easy compared to a game like Stalker or BC2 on PC; auto-aim used to compensate for lack of precision == easier game!

Stalkers difficulty doesn't come from it's aiming mechanics. Same can be said for BC2. In fact both games aims easily regardless of platform or controller method.

Game difficulty rarely has anything to do with your controller preference. Only games that would are twitch shooters.

[QUOTE="haberman13"]

[QUOTE="Led_poison"]

There is no evidence suggesting LESS precision means an easier game or vice versa. You just made that crap up and essentially are using yourself as a source

i5750at4Ghz

There is evidence: console games

TPS games like Gears are unbelievablly easy compared to a game like Stalker or BC2 on PC; auto-aim used to compensate for lack of precision == easier game!

Both games aim easily, one because of auto-aim (computer) and one because I'm precise with a mouse (me).

Stalker is absolutely about aim skill (among other things), lean + head shot is almost necessary on "Stalker" difficulty. Especially the faction stuff in Clear Sky. You can argue that also exists on console, but I would refer you back to my first sentence.

[QUOTE="i5750at4Ghz"][QUOTE="haberman13"]

There is evidence: console games

TPS games like Gears are unbelievablly easy compared to a game like Stalker or BC2 on PC; auto-aim used to compensate for lack of precision == easier game!

haberman13

Both games aim easily, one because of auto-aim (computer) and one because I'm precise with a mouse (me).

Stalker is absolutely about aim skill (among other things), lean + head shot is almost necessary on "Stalker" difficulty. Especially the faction stuff in Clear Sky.

[QUOTE="jjccjj92"]

Preference.

haberman13

Think so? I disagree, console gamers don't really know what PC precision is like ... so arguments come from not knowing.

Try an FPS on console, and the same game on PC: opinion is negated at that point.

[QUOTE="haberman13"]

[QUOTE="i5750at4Ghz"] Stalkers difficulty doesn't come from it's aiming mechanics. Same can be said for BC2. In fact both games aims easily regardless of platform or controller method. i5750at4Ghz

Both games aim easily, one because of auto-aim (computer) and one because I'm precise with a mouse (me).

Stalker is absolutely about aim skill (among other things), lean + head shot is almost necessary on "Stalker" difficulty. Especially the faction stuff in Clear Sky.

Controllers force developers to create easy games, on PC developers have more room to challenge your skill.

On console the developers have to create scenarios where the move/kill/aim is "loosened" so its not frustratingly hard, so you get run-n-gun, and auto-aim.

This could've been a serious thread until I read your sig OP. Every plattform has it's up and downs.

This could've been a serious thread until I read your sig OP. Every plattform has it's up and downs.

KillerJuan77

Throw the entire concept out of the water because you disagree with my sig? Sounds intellectually dishonest imo.

They both have their pros and cons with the mouse being the very best for FPS games. The same can't be said for the keyboard, though. Regardless, Navigation controller + wireless mouse is the best combination ever.

I think that playing a game like team fortress 2 with controllers would be hilarious. You would either have to make it aim very quickly so you could rocket jump, or turn slowly and have good aim, but render some things impossible to do. KB/Mouse is definitely superior for FPS, but does it really matter if you're only playing against other players using controllers?

[QUOTE="i5750at4Ghz"][QUOTE="haberman13"]

Both games aim easily, one because of auto-aim (computer) and one because I'm precise with a mouse (me).

Stalker is absolutely about aim skill (among other things), lean + head shot is almost necessary on "Stalker" difficulty. Especially the faction stuff in Clear Sky.

Controllers force developers to create easy games, on PC developers have more room to challenge your skill.

On console the developers have to create scenarios where the move/kill/aim is "loosened" so its not frustratingly hard, so you get run-n-gun, and auto-aim.

[QUOTE="i5750at4Ghz"][QUOTE="haberman13"]

Both games aim easily, one because of auto-aim (computer) and one because I'm precise with a mouse (me).

Stalker is absolutely about aim skill (among other things), lean + head shot is almost necessary on "Stalker" difficulty. Especially the faction stuff in Clear Sky.

haberman13

Controllers force developers to create easy games, on PC developers have more room to challenge your skill.

On console the developers have to create scenarios where the move/kill/aim is "loosened" so its not frustratingly hard, so you get run-n-gun, and auto-aim.

[QUOTE="haberman13"]

[QUOTE="i5750at4Ghz"] Stalker is hard because the AI is good as hell, and cheats on higher difficulties. Not because the aiming is at all difficult. If anything you're proving PC gamers have it easier due to having an overall more precise controller scheme. The fact console gamers "need help" would imply it's more difficult not less._Cadbury_

Controllers force developers to create easy games, on PC developers have more room to challenge your skill.

On console the developers have to create scenarios where the move/kill/aim is "loosened" so its not frustratingly hard, so you get run-n-gun, and auto-aim.

Do I actually care? no

But, for the sake of argument (and truth): multiplats affect PC (even with better controls we still get console dev philosophy)

I would like more Stalker and less Gears conceptually.

[QUOTE="_Cadbury_"][QUOTE="haberman13"]

Controllers force developers to create easy games, on PC developers have more room to challenge your skill.

On console the developers have to create scenarios where the move/kill/aim is "loosened" so its not frustratingly hard, so you get run-n-gun, and auto-aim.

haberman13

Do I actually care? no

But, for the sake of argument (and truth): multiplats affect PC (even with better controls we still get console dev philosophy)

I would like more Stalker and less Gears conceptually.

This is a different discussion.

Do controls affect games? I say yes, the controller forces devs to create a specific type of game, same with mouse developed games.

TPS games are superior on console. FPS games are superior on PC.

haberman13

PC's and consoles BOTH have their pros and cons and most of them are very subjective based on a gamers personnal tastes.

Also there are a ton of amazing games that are not available on PC that most gamers refuse to miss out on.

If you, like many PC gamers, are just venting due to many devs shifting their focus to consoles, you should know where to direct your anger. It is the majority of PC gamres who pirate that is the cause of the shift. The torrent for the PC version of Modern Warfare 2 was downloaded 5,000,000 times and sold around 1,000,000 retail copies. That is why devs are either going multiplat or even not releasing on PC at all.

At this time MOST PC gamers pirate rather than purchase. If you want to make a difference, then find a way to stop the piracy. Trying to pester and annoy console gamers is NOT going to result in better PC games sales. Out of all the posts from you and other PC gamers who constantly try to convince console gamers to "see the light", I have never seen one response along the lines of "OMG, thanks for opening my eyes! I will sell my consoles right away and buy a high end gaming PC!!!"

Throw the entire concept out of the water because you disagree with my sig? Sounds intellectually dishonest imo.

haberman13

Not really, since when consoles have poor controls and only third person shooters? Sure you can't be as precise with an analog stick compared to a M&K but it's still fairly functional.

Besides, look at what you wrote on another thread

1. Console games are highly polished, but very easy, linear and similar, characterized by corridor shooters and cover mechanics

2. PC games are buggy/wonky, but have tremendous depth and breadth, characterized by large open worlds and challenging statistical mechanics

Maybe the argument on SW is really between those people who like polished and simple products vs buggy but deep. Some people can't stomach "bugginess" and some people can't stomach simplified. Personally I would rather have a game I can play for years because its a) challenging b) deep c) open, so I game on PC.

Thoughts? Would you rather have polished but limited or buggy and wide open?

Example: GeoW VS. Shogun 2 | UC3 VS. Witcher 2 | Arma VS. CoD | Halo VS. Stalker | Crysis VS. Crysis 2haberman13

First of all, not everything is easy, linear and similar on consoles, have you played games like Enslaved, Metal Gear Solid 3, Lost Odyssey or Okami? They might be linear but they have an incredible amount of depth.

Second, while you can easily look over bugs and such many people can't (Like me), for example, look at Cryostasis, a linear, simple game with a great story and graphics but I couldn't look over the clunky combat mechanics, horrendous performance (The game ran better with hardware PhysX on for some reason) and a strange bug in which if I died and I decided to load my last save the game would cap itself at 10 FPS. You might consider this acceptable but I consider it an insult.

And well, who compares ArmA with COD? They are both different games targeted at different kinds of audience, one is a complex simulator made for people that really want to experience the realism of warfare while the other one is a simple FPS made for a more mainstream audience that just wants to be able to pick up the controller and play. And don't even get me started with your Shogun 2 and Gears Of War comparison.

If anything your view is incredibly biased and don't forget that not everything works as an ultra complex simulator that uses every key of your keyboard. Just picture playing a Final Fantasy game like that!

[QUOTE="IronBass"]Nah, console controls are perfectly fine. ChubbyGuy40

Perfectly fine for imprecise and slow controls.

Blizzard should make Diablo 3 crossplay pvp arena with PS3 and PC

PC gamers would utterly destroy them, it would be so funny

*laughs hard* all the pc has is precise mouse controls otherwise a gamepad is far faster for movement type applications.

WilliamRLBaker

yeah. there are only 2 advantages to a keyboard mouse configuration

- the precision of the mouse (used in shooters and RTS primarily)

- having alot of keys to map commands (primarily used in MMOs)

thats pretty much it. other than those genres, you are basically dealing with a giant flat controller with no analog sticks. this is one of the reasons why the PC is generally lacking in a variety of genres and why those games dont sell. for instance, look how poorly "darksiders" sold on the PC, even including downloads. it was pathetic. no one wants to play a "hack and slash" game with a keyboard and mouse.

Auto aim ruins consoles, but that the flaw of sticks and not a mouse that is 3200 dpi.

For sports and racing the 360 gamepad destroys keyboard and mouse. Even my gaming keyboard with more macro keys then i will ever use

[QUOTE="IronBass"]

Perfectly fine for imprecise and slow controls.

ChubbyGuy40

[QUOTE="IronBass"]Nah, console controls are perfectly fine. Jankarcop

"The proposal, part of Microsoft's LIVE push, popped up "many many months ago", and would have allowed people playing games available on both PC and 360 - like Gears of War - to take each other on. Kind of like 2007 shooter Shadowrun, only people would actually play it.

Problems quickly arose in testing, however, when Microsoft found that even the best console gamers simply couldn't compete with the accuracy a mouse and keyboard afforded a PC player. "The console players got destroyed every time", Sood says. "So much so that it would be embarrassing to the XBOX team in general had Microsoft launched this initiative."

Good job providing a quote that has absolutely no relation to the quoted post. 360 controls can be good without being as accurate as PC controls.

honestly how many more of these threads do we need...

anyway I prefer consoles...

[QUOTE="WilliamRLBaker"]*laughs hard* all the pc has is precise mouse controls otherwise a gamepad is far faster for movement type applications.

arbitor365

yeah. there are only 2 advantages to a keyboard mouse configuration

- the precision of the mouse (used in shooters and RTS primarily)

- having alot of keys to map commands (primarily used in MMOs)

thats pretty much it. other than those genres, you are basically dealing with a giant flat controller with no analog sticks. this is one of the reasons why the PC is generally lacking in a variety of genres and why those games dont sell. for instance, look how poorly "darksiders" sold on the PC, even including downloads. it was pathetic. no one wants to play a "hack and slash" game with a keyboard and mouse.

So plug in any controller you want.

I'm a 100% PC prefering guy. I also prefer the controller whenever possible. Unless I'm playing against other m/kb players I use my controllers.

I'm a PC gamer because of the vastly superior hardware. I couldn't care less about the m/kb.

[QUOTE="ChubbyGuy40"]

[QUOTE="IronBass"]Nah, console controls are perfectly fine. WilliamRLBaker

Perfectly fine for imprecise and slow controls.

Some lemming really claimed gamepad is faster than keyboard and mouse?

Go actually play some PC and come back when you take your fanboy glasses off.

im guessing this is hermit trollsauce night tonight...

Why cant you lot get it into your head some people prefer simplicity and feel of a controller, and tbh i personally despise keyboards for bout all genre's cept strategy based ones like RTS,Turn based etc.

Yeah i know im gonna get some paragraph of nonsense based on your preference, and how im totally wrong and a massive casual gamer and/or inferior to the supposed PC gamer aswell :roll:

razgriz_101

i agree with this post, people here like to force others to side with them through REPEAT threads

[QUOTE="WilliamRLBaker"]

[QUOTE="ChubbyGuy40"]

Perfectly fine for imprecise and slow controls.

ChubbyGuy40

Some lemming really claimed gamepad is faster than keyboard and mouse?

Go actually play some PC and come back when you take your fanboy glasses off.

not to allign myself with a lemming, but he did say "movement" not "aiming." and yes, analog sticks are alot more preciseinmovement than using "WASD."

[QUOTE="ChubbyGuy40"]

[QUOTE="WilliamRLBaker"] *laughs hard* all the pc has is precise mouse controls otherwise a gamepad is far faster for movement type applications.

arbitor365

Some lemming really claimed gamepad is faster than keyboard and mouse?

Go actually play some PC and come back when you take your fanboy glasses off.

not to allign myself with a lemming, but he did say "movement" not "aiming." and yes, analog sticks are alot more preciseinmovement than using "WASD."

BC2 is a great example of this; on console its very much aim-assisted and the bullet physics are missing

haberman13

Stopped reading there.

Anyone who's played BC2 on a console can tell you that bullet drop is in the game. :|

[QUOTE="Pug-Nasty"]

BC2 has bullet drop on consoles buddy.

Also, there are console (at least I know of PS3) games that don't have any aim assist in the MP portion, and they control great. The fact is that aiming isn't more difficult with an analog stick if the acceleration and sensitivity are programmed well for that analog stick.

If you just take a PC game's mouse controls and map it to an analog stick, it will control like crap with a controller (see Turok for a demonstration).

Likewise, if you took a well made console game's controls and just ported them whole sale to a PC, the mouse wouldn't work well since the acceleration will be all funky.

I don't like aiming with a mouse, since I find the larger movement is less precise than the smaller movement I use aiming with a controller. Also, I find the way FPS games play on a PC to feel very silly and unnatural due to mouse control side effects, such as speed and stiffness. It seems like console FPS games have more ability to differentiate themselves in how they feel and play because the acceleration, speed, and movement can all be tailored to the game

ChubbyGuy40

Yet you still don't have the precision, control, or speed you do with a mouse for aiming. Not to mention you have much more customization options for mouse.

Also BC2 has auto-aim and larger hit boxes on consoles.

TC claimed that console BC2 doesn't have the bullet drop... he is wrong. As far as larger hit boxes, who cares? Wouldn't that just compensate for "less precise" aiming anyway? The hit detection sucks in BC2 as it is.

You can customize the aiming controls in every modern game, I don't see how that makes an analog stick less useful in an FPS. I prefer an analog stick because it feels much more natural and smooth to me than a mouse. A mouse should have an analog stick built in for small movements.

So there isn't buller drop on the console version? Maybe you should tell my PS3 version because apparently the bullets in that game just love to drop after certain distances and give me extra points.

I know ignorance is doled out frequently in SW, but come on. At least get the little facts right.

[QUOTE="WilliamRLBaker"]*laughs hard* all the pc has is precise mouse controls otherwise a gamepad is far faster for movement type applications.

arbitor365

yeah. there are only 2 advantages to a keyboard mouse configuration

- the precision of the mouse (used in shooters and RTS primarily)

- having alot of keys to map commands (primarily used in MMOs)

thats pretty much it. other than those genres, you are basically dealing with a giant flat controller with no analog sticks. this is one of the reasons why the PC is generally lacking in a variety of genres and why those games dont sell. for instance, look how poorly "darksiders" sold on the PC, even including downloads. it was pathetic. no one wants to play a "hack and slash" game with a keyboard and mouse.

XBOX exclusives are far lower in variety and number, and mostly consist of SHOOTERS --- the genre that greatly KB/M excels at.

Ouch.

Indeed, that's due to the beauty of being able to control movement speed without having to press yet another button on a big keyboard.Ravensmash

not to mention that with an analog stick you can move in many different precise degrees. "WASD" only has 8 directions possible. "WASD" is basically like Dpad, only less efficient in my opinion.

XBOX exclusives are far lower in variety and number, and mostly consist of SHOOTERS --- the genre that greatly KB/M excels at.Jankarcop

im a cow, not a lemming. I was just backing up this guy's point.

As a console only gamer with an interest and some experience in PC gaming, here's my take:
M/KB > Move > Dual Analog

Is a mouse faster and more accurate? Yes. But I feel like the Move has done the best job at bridging the gap between DA and the mouse. As for movement and other controls, the keyboard just feels clunky to me. And trust me, after years of typing and doing design work and trying different games it's not that I'm not used to a keyboard.

To all the people that claim using dual analog is akin to driving a tank: Sure, if the game lacks options or you don't change the settings. My sensitivity was maxed on the SOCOM 4 beta and I still felt that turning / aiming was too slow. I mean, maybe I'm just weird, but for any games that let me turn aim-assist off, I do. I go as mouselike as I can with the controls (high sensitivity, no aim assist), and you know what? I do fine. As long as the aiming mechanics aren't broken, you adapt. It's not hard. I'm currently playing through my Hardcore run on Dead Space 2 with the sensitivity at 10 and loving it.

Sure, I'll play games and have times where I spin around and miss shots that I probably would've easily made on the PC, but they're few and far between and it's not enough to kill my enjoyment of the game. And in the end, that's all that matters.

[QUOTE="ianuilliam"]

[QUOTE="haberman13"]

Think so? I disagree, console gamers don't really know what PC precision is like ... so arguments come from not knowing.

Try an FPS on console, and the same game on PC: opinion is negated at that point.

haberman13

No, I'm saying run-n-gun is console (as duck and shoot requires precision). Sorry for the confusion, I impuned "cover mechanics" as well so you got it from that.

duck and shoot == CSS/BC2 PC

run and gun == Halo/Gears/etc

In a console game movement doesn't affect accuracy (in most shooters at least) like Gears, where as on PC you have to duck and shoot with short bursts or the recoil kills you.

Recoil in pc games? Why would a pc gamer be using automatic weapons? I thought mouse was such a fast and precise input that all pc gamers were doing 180 no-scope head-shots.

But seriously. I haven't by any means played every pc game (and shooters isn't really a genre I play a whole lot of on pc, since I prefer an analog stick for movement in 3d games over wasd), so maybe it's just in more recent pc shooters, but I've not really experienced the you have to duck in order to shoot thing you're talking about. I also feel compelled to point out that there are plenty of shooters on consoles where moving does in fact effect your accuracy. Actually, pretty much every fps or tps I can think of, when you move versus standing still, the reticle gets larger as your aim gets looser, and many give better accuracy kneeling/lying down. I'm beginning to suspect that you haven't actually ever played a console game.